Pusher Eligibility Rules

[TommyK]

It was actually my wife. Who HATES buggy. But she knows that I carry the mark. WHAT THE FUCK.

I gave some KDRs some decent buggy advice once, that worked out ok for us. maybe less 'Phaust' and more a 'Pay it Phorward'

[splayer]

Because you can't build a buggy out of paper-mache

That's not exactly true. I'm fairly sure that Kappa bought CIA's Defiant and gave it a new paper mache exterior. (CIA alums from that time feel free to correct me)
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It was Spectre, not Defiant.

[swiftsam]

Because you can't build a buggy out of paper-mache

That's not exactly true. I'm fairly sure that Kappa bought CIA's Defiant and gave it a new paper mache exterior. (CIA alums from that time feel free to correct me)
.

It was Spectre, not Defiant.

And to be fair, it wasn't actually paper mache, it was fiberglass with poorly measured and mixed polyester resin that never hardened fully. I think it was water-resistant though, maybe a tip for those booth orgs.

[Ben]

That's not exactly true. I'm fairly sure that Kappa bought CIA's Defiant and gave it a new paper mache exterior. (CIA alums from that time feel free to correct me)
.

It was Spectre, not Defiant.

And to be fair, it wasn't actually paper mache, it was fiberglass with poorly measured and mixed polyester resin that never hardened fully. I think it was water-resistant though, maybe a tip for those booth orgs.

Still looked like shit

[40dogg]

In my humble(?) opinion, there are three barriers keeping students out of buggy:

1.) Time commitment. Waking up early sucks. Unlike booth, buggy is a commitment for many months. You just can't roll without putting in a lot of time.

2.) Capital commitment. Even if you put the buggy and the wheels aside, you need a room and tools. The ancillary gear for buggy is expensive. If you want to not suck, not top 3, but just not suck, it takes tons of cash or an established program.

3.) Lack of room for the casual. Let's say you have some friends, a space, and a few grand to burn. All the other orgs are going to hate you if you come out to rolls with a reincarnation of The Fish and "waste" precious free roll time. The closest I've seen were when the Shocker, Limo, and Teal Whistler have come back out. Or the Stealth team for CIA '98. It is no coincidence that these came out of established organizations.


Here's my question for you all: There are a bunch of orgs that are big and competitive, but they don't do buggy. I'm thinking of groups like ASA. What is keeping them away?

[/quote]

I'd add a fourth barrier, the percieved costs of participating. I mean, groups like ASA may have the members and cash and alums to back them, but might not be interested simply because of the unknowns surrounding time and costs. Having a set of baseline standards of tried-and-true designs ("This is a wagon-axle steering" or "Here's how a wet layup works"), with typical costs might lower the percieved costs for an org that could potentially be interested. I'm not talking about giving away the farm here, but a set of common standards (the stuff that everyone here should already know - cheap stuff that works, but not necessarily the lightest or fastest) might generate interest from some of those orgs.

I mean, you can weld a steel-tube frame and mold a fiberglass shell for something like $250 and make it under 30lbs and not completely suck. Problem is, people don't really know that.

[shafeeq]

I mean, you can weld a steel-tube frame and mold a fiberglass shell for something like $250 and make it under 30lbs and not completely suck. Problem is, people don't really know that.

Yeah, or even wood, which they clearly already know how to work with. Building a decent buggy on a low budget is in some ways more of a challenge than bulding the fastest buggy at any price. I know Carsen & I had fun trying to figure out how to turn Spectre/Ursula back into a buggy using only whatever was lying around.

[40dogg]

Good point, if you try to free-build, you're going to waste lots of time and money, and get a worse result than what you intended. If I'd had an example, or at least some cursory information on what I was trying to do back in the day, I'm sure I would've ended up with more cash for recruiting/wheels etc.

[lemuroid]

Certainly wheels have become a much more expensive proposition than in the recent past. We have recently gone from the original Xootr wheels which were competitive for very cheap (probably the cheapest stock solution to be available for buggy), to wheels that are probably the most expensive buggy has ever seen (for a stock solution).

Wheel costs are an interesting subject.

At one point (before our birth) , the red SDB wheel was a cheap off the shelf solution. It beat all other wheel solutions of it's day and was mass produced for decades. Eventually people figured out which of these were the good ones (not all were created equal) and those were highly sought after. Demand was split between SDB and CMU for a limited number of great wheels. The off the shelf solution was no longer off the shelf as the supply dried up.

Eventually we hit the point where the cost of good wheels was infinite. You either had access to great rubber or you did not. There was not an off the shelf option that would work well enough to get you in range of good SBD rubber.

Seeking an alternative to the sbd tire led to the development of custom rubber including the goodyear rubber of the 80s. That too was a story of haves and have-nots. Access was not easy at any price. Even when goodyear made a batch for everyone (87), it did not help as this batch sucked mightily. There were a handful of exceptions to this: CIA in 1981 and spirit did well in the last 80s on some good old SBD rubber treated to within inches of it's life for a few years (a high risk strategy as there were some great tire failures/ spins involved).

The advent of the small pneumatic was the first significant off the shelf solution that had wide access since the early days of SBD wheels. However, the costs of those were not insignificant given the short life expectancy. These changed the game as you no longer needed deep alumni relationships to get speed. There were still a few speedsters who went their own way (PKA and SN) with custom fast wheels in the 90s.

The original xootr wheel was the ultimate low cost solution while they lasted. But, like the SBD wheels before them, there was an end to the supply of good ones. The stock xootr of today has no shot.

While the custom urethane that has replaced the stock xootr have costs that appear relatively high (~$200 a wheel for ZE last I checked), it may not be as $$$ as it appears. Depending on the level of abuse you subject these wheels to, the cost to run them over the course of the year may be very competitive with earlier fast options. The new stuff is fairly tough (with some noted exceptions) so it may be a bargain vs. pneumatics or rubber (which also had a very short life per tire). I would say the custom urethane is a bargain given that if they did not exist, pka would be on something like 9 wins in a row at this point.

[lchomas]

The cost of wheels issue should not be that big a deal for a new/restarting/rebuilding org either. The best wheels certainly cost a lot, if you even know where to get them, if you expect to win. But, I would argue that a decent push team with a well executed, inexpensive buggy could roll on pneumatics or inexpensive solids and still contend for the second day. I know there were many years that KDR was excited to just get that and I have a feeling that Pioneers/CIA/Kap Sig/AEPi/DTD/Kappa all feel the same.

The trouble is that everyone is so secretive and the lore around buggy is that it's a big secret that's expensive and hard to do. Maybe if some basic things about construction and design were handed to undergrads in some kind of workshop open to anyone, the level of participation would go up. I know I felt like buggy was something I couldn't get involved with when I was a freshman until I joined KDR for non-buggy reasons.

[Zatchmo]

But, I would argue that a decent push team with a well executed, inexpensive buggy could roll on pneumatics or inexpensive solids and still contend for the second day. I know there were many years that KDR was excited to just get that and I have a feeling that Pioneers/CIA/Kap Sig/AEPi/DTD/Kappa all feel the same.

Mostly agreed, but well-executed is an important catch. The fairly middle of the road (big, heavy, and reliable) Kamikaze on stock Xootrs made it to 11th in 2009, a jump we were thrilled with. That said, the buggy was only heavy by modern standards; we aren't talking frame and shell or wooden pushbars here. I think the best way of getting a new org started is with close mentoring, and that I think should be BAA's next big project. An alumni, preferably in Pittsburgh, willing to hold a teams hand through their first build, their first few days of rolls, and get some solid footing under their mechanics and drivers. Not give away wheel formulations, but to show that a $5 bearing can roll pretty well, how to bastardize an air conditioner or minifridge into a cheap vacuum pump, and overall shatter the mystique and lore and make buggy an approachable and fun exercise in practical engineering. A lot of the vibe I have been getting here, the next big idea thread, and the PiKA announcement is that we all know that expanding Buggy is good for Buggy, good for us, and even just fun to watch. Can BAA reach out to these orgs and play the role of matchmaker?

I think one of the best ways to jumpstart a new org is to get them a way of buying a buggy. There is a lot of good hardware that has been idled for the last several years as Fraternities have been kicked off campus or decided to disband, teams scaled back, and things got retired over time. Maybe it's time that some existing teams started taking a hit and putting their old fleets to good use, and modern fleets with no plans on restarting start working with new orgs. I was thrilled to see KKG/ZBT and KapSig hit the course with new buggies, but I think that is an exception to the rule. Building a buggy, especially with no equipment already owned, is a pretty expensive and uncertain process. It's a damn hard sell to a fraternity too ("I propose we start doing this Buggy thing. We won't be able to roll for a year or two, it will cost thousands of dollars, we don't know enough to ballpark a final cost, and the thing might never work or fall apart soon"). Having one to get people in the mindset and give mechanics something to base future plans off of is invaluable.

Don't think that not making second day is the thing preventing a new org from joining. Self-improvement and the thrill of besting your own times can be way better than comparisons among teams who already had their groundwork done for them. Uncertainty in cost/longevity of a new build, lack of familiarity with the little details of weekly operations of an org, and lack of a close contact from whom to get advice are far bigger deterrents.