5 second rule

[jixson]

Let's talk about something actually related to Buggy. Looking back at the raceday thread, there seemed to be some strong opinions concerning this rule, both about it's enforcement and lack there of. I'm curious what the Buggy community thinks about it. Does it do more harm than good? Should it be kept, removed, or maybe changed in some way?

[Carl Nott]

Personally I would prefer it if 5 second violations, pacing, and transition/lane violations resulted in a yellow card, if you will, in that the team must take a reroll and their final time becomes the slowest roll between the flagged roll and the reroll.

No hand on pushbar, crashing into another buggy, etc., would still get red cards.

[swiftsam]

Personally I would prefer it if 5 second violations, pacing, and transition/lane violations resulted in a yellow card, if you will, in that the team must take a reroll and their final time becomes the slowest roll between the flagged roll and the reroll.

No hand on pushbar, crashing into another buggy, etc., would still get red cards.

I really really like this. I think there are way too many DQs in buggy these days and it's bad for business. There's no way a full year of effort should be completely erased because the team made a stupid mistake that granted them no real advantage.

The trick is to write the yellow card concept in a way that doesn't create an incentive to violate the original rules. Would the re-rolls for rule breakers be at the end of the day? If so would teams in heat 1 want to pace on hill 1 then jog the rest as a warm up and get a roll at the end of the day when it's hot?

[jixson]

I was thinking maybe for what you would refer to as yellow-card violations, we could just do what most racing sports do and give out time penalties, just slap on 5 seconds to the final time and call it a day

[shafeeq]

I agree, it'd be nice to have penalties than aren't all or nothing. On the other hand, is there much of a difference between a DQ and adding 5 or 10s to someone's time? Plus, keeping track of results becomes more complicated - "was that 2:05 with or without a penalty?".

For good teams, picking up a penalty in prelims is only going to change which final heat they end up in, unless the penalty carries over. And if it does carry over to finals, and your A team is carrying a penalty, you can still play the alternate game and move the pushers to your un-penalized B team. I think this is actually worse, because now the 11th fastest team doesn't get into finals, and your B team pushers take one for the team.

Breaking the 5-second rule doesn't have much excuse - you know when you have to be ready, and if you want to wait right to the limit because you think that gives you an advantage, then you better be certain you're not going to wait too long. The Derby folks's lazy approach was kind of surprising to me - their margins of victory are tiny compared to buggy, and yet they are unconcerned about leaving their wheels on the ground for ages. Then again, I wouldn't want to carry a 200lb car all the time.

I can understand messing up transitions in the excitement of the day - 1s penalty for every foot the transition is late? Same thing for how far over the drop test line you go?
I liked the false-start rule speedskating used to have - instead of getting DQ'd, you have to start from the penalty start line, so your race is 6' longer.

[jixson]

On the other hand, is there much of a difference between a DQ and adding 5 or 10s to someone's time? Plus, keeping track of results becomes more complicated - "was that 2:05 with or without a penalty?".

I'd say there is, the top 6 in men's this year was spread over something like 12 or 13 seconds. And it doesn't become that much more complicated, put an asterik or something.

For good teams, picking up a penalty in prelims is only going to change which final heat they end up in, unless the penalty carries over. And if it does carry over to finals, and your A team is carrying a penalty, you can still play the alternate game and move the pushers to your un-penalized B team. I think this is actually worse, because now the 11th fastest team doesn't get into finals, and your B team pushers take one for the team.

Carry the penalty over, lock the teams. The whole being able to switch the teams around between days makes absolutely no sense to me unless there's an injury

Breaking the 5-second rule doesn't have much excuse - you know when you have to be ready, and if you want to wait right to the limit because you think that gives you an advantage, then you better be certain you're not going to wait too long...
I can understand messing up transitions in the excitement of the day - 1s penalty for every foot the transition is late? Same thing for how far over the drop test line you go?
I liked the false-start rule speedskating used to have - instead of getting DQ'd, you have to start from the penalty start line, so your race is 6' longer.

True, there's no excuse to break it, but does it constitute a DQ if the mechanic moves at 3 instead of 5?
It's hard to do a penalty per foot deal for transitions since there's no truly accurate way to measure it. It'd be easier for drop tests to measure, but I personally think failing drop tests, a test we do every weekend at rolls, is a bit more serious.

[Jerry]

I find the idea of having two tiers of punishment (yellow card = time penalty, red card = DQ) to be very appealing, because some DQs are serious safety risks (failing drops, any form of spin/crash, interference) while others are technicalities of the sport (5sec rule, transition zones, finish line hand-on-pushbar). If we decide to split up the infractions into two levels, it will be a little tough to decide which go in which categories. Also, all of the yellow card penalties could conceivably be violated so thoroughly that a red card might be deserved. Judges' discretion?

Another reason I like this idea is because when a team gets disqualified for breaking one of the non-safety-focused rules, the disappointment can be crushing enough to actually be a turn-off to the sport. I'm sure I speak for more than one person.

So let's say a yellow card is a 5sec penalty to the team's time. If a team gets two yellow cards in a roll, should they get a 10sec penalty, or be disqualified?

When you guys say "carry the penalty over" do you mean applying the same penalty to the second-day time, no matter what? I feel like the finalists should be given another chance. Maybe a day 2 infraction (of the same kind, or any) could be an automatic red card. I do agree with the idea of locking teams with the exception of injuries. Would the head judge have to approve roster changes?

We'd obviously need to make the time penalty big enough that a net gain couldn't be achieved by breaking a rule (i.e. deliberately missing the pushbar for a faster finish). A 5sec penalty wouldn't push a team down too far in the standings, whereas a 10sec one would be enough to knock any but the fastest A-teams out of the finals.

[TommyK]

After the starter announces that there are five seconds remaining to the start of a heat, nobody except the drivers and Hill 1 pushers of the entries in that heat, and the starter, may be within five feet of any of the buggies in that heat, until that heat begins

I was never a fan of the five foot zone portion of the rule ... it reads like a "in the paint" rule from hockey or basketball but isn't clearly delineated on the course ... check the video, is that mechanic 4 or 5 feet from the buggy at 5 seconds? how often has someone been in this zone but it didn't hamper another team or give an advantage and was overruled in committee? ambiguities require interpretation, less ambiguity should be more 'fair'.

sometimes its fun to watch panicky mechanics sprint away vs the well rehearsed SDC ballet of straps and timed procedures but maybe the less organized teams could use clearer indicators to help them avoid mistakes.

suggestions:
add a warning bell or horn at 30 seconds (clear indicator that is heard around course and in trucks that race is about to start)
add "start zone" lines or chalked area around starting line
add "no touching the buggy at 10 seconds" and keep the 5 feet 5 second rule - gives mechanics time to calmly leave the zone.

I'd like to bring back pacing, its a fun way to show support and I don't believe it gives unfair advantage ...

[JakeReid]

I'd like to bring back pacing, its a fun way to show support and I don't believe it gives unfair advantage ...

Absolutely agree. CIA had a team DQ'd in 2010 for pacing, and it was infuriating--nothing had been done to gain an advantage, it was just an enthusiastic member of the team who didn't know about the arbitrary rule. Besides, crowds of enthusiastic fans chasing the buggies on raceday would be a very obviously fun tradition that could help get the rest of campus more excited about buggy.

I totally agree with the idea of using time penalties for minor infractions like (slight) five-second violations and (slight) pushbar misses. Obviously, any flagrant disregard for the rules like a hill five pusher shoving the buggy the last 10 meters should be punished with a more severe penalty, but slight violations should not be enough to completely disqualify the months and months of work that go into preparing for raceday. Tacking five or ten seconds on to a team's time is enough to bump a top team down a couple of places, but not enough to completely crush a team's spot in the standings.

[jixson]

suggestions:
add a warning bell or horn at 30 seconds (clear indicator that is heard around course and in trucks that race is about to start)
add "start zone" lines or chalked area around starting line
add "no touching the buggy at 10 seconds" and keep the 5 feet 5 second rule - gives mechanics time to calmly leave the zone.

The starting timer guy (what is this role called? I just called him Dave) gives time warnings already so everyone should already know when it's go time
I think the zone idea is great. Knowing you're outside of a box is easier than knowing you're 5 feet away in a pinch