5 second rule

[trophymursky]

I'm for time penalties for the 5 second rule and absolutely for zones for the 5 second rule. I also think missing the pushbar at the finish line should be a dq. It is a clear rule that has a purpose as it forces the hill 5 runner to cover the entire hill 5 distance. Adding a time penalty for "near misses" I think won't work because it is really hard to objectively define a near miss vs intentionally pushing it across the line to gain an advantage.

As for pacing I (thou I realize I am probably in the minority) think its a good rule. Pacing does help pushers go faster whether people like to admit it or not and right now its up to the organization to inform everyone (including alumni) about the rule. I do think it would be nice if there was an announcement or something before each race to the general buggy audience on raceday informing everyone of the rule to prevent some random person accidentally getting a team dq'ed.

[the cook]

defining a slight pushbar miss would be right up there with defining a slight pregnancy. it is or it isn't

no wiggle room should be allowed there, pushing a good 5 totaly depends on making a sane judgement on how hard to make that second shove, and that largely depends on practice. If teams who never put on fast wheels or never get proper practice on 5 blow it, then so much the better.

[Ben]

I'm all for making the rules very defined, but sometimes it does come down to the judgement of the judges and decision of the head judge. That being said, the 5-second-rule (as this thread is named) is one of those that is nearly impossible to measure, and equally hard to judge after the fact. I believe Zones is a good idea, but easier to measure would be something like:

- hands off at 10 sec.
- Only pusher, buggy, and driver at the line at 5 sec.

no extra markings are needed and this is all recorded for each race anyway. The only real qualification I'm seeing that might be needed is that the mechanics would have to be behind some line that would determine the "crowd", something like not in the path of the follow truck, I dunno.

[Mohin]

Concerning the pushbar rule: all or nothing. Either you MUST have your hand GRASPING the pushbar, or just trash it and make a new rule about stopping the buggy safely (i.e. 4 mechs on hand to catch - a good way to see if those brakes work too!).

5 second rule:
One of the worst rules in buggy. Only ever hurts new teams or a mistake made by that butterfingers mcgee mechanic. Can someone explain to me why this rule exists at all? The way I see it, squeeze every second out of the countdown you can, if you mess up and get in the way of your pusher, it's on you, self-inflicted penalty, suckas.

Can we open up a can of worms here and talk about the drop test? First of all, it's imaginable that I might just be bitter about our DQ by about 4 inches on the drop test this year. However, our buggy came to a very controlled stop. I'd much prefer that than having a buggy lock up whatever wheel they have it braking on and spin wildly and flip. Clearly this test is to ensure that the brakes weren't removed or disabled, but as long as the buggy CAN stop, why DQ? (I hope that) we are all poignantly aware that both drops and capes are in no way a good indicator of course performance in an emergency stop situation. I'm open to suggestions for a better test, this post is getting long so I won't proffer any here.

In my (very humble) opinion, one of the BIGGEST barriers to entry for buggy is the insane amount of DQs inexperienced (or even experienced) teams get every year. You get ONE shot after countless painful early mornings and thousands of dollars spent on composites, and you blow it by sneezing at the 6 second mark in front of the head judge. Convincing a new team that it's easy to do well in this game is hard with that MO.

If I were the chairman, I'd do a rules review to ***fairly*** reduce the incidence of DQs on raceday. Despite CMU nerds' ability to annoyingly try to win on technicalities in poorly written rules, and barring any removals of necessary safety precautions, just make it easier for teams to get on the scoreboard.

[DeVos]

5 second rule-I think the purpose behind the 5 second rule was a) so that no one (other than the hill 1 pusher) could give the buggy a push at the start of the race, b) to ensure that the mechanics of one team aren't in the way of other teams, c) make it easier for the judges to see false starts.
I disagree that it is a bad rule but I do think that it could be implemented better. Right now it encourages teams to push it right to the edge which means that small mistakes can end up costing a team big time. I like the idea of a defined zone and a "set the buggy down at 10 seconds, no one in the zone after 5" approach.

Pushbar-I think the pushbar rule has two parts. The first is to ensure that the hill 5 pusher doesn't just give a huge push and never catch up to the buggy. The second is to help stop the buggy at the finish line. They both stem from a desire to make sure that the buggy is under control as it crosses the finish line (into the crowd of people on raceday or into the intersection at the top of the hill during rolls).
This rule has a lot to do with the hill 5 technique and I don't see anything wrong with the way it is done now.

Pacing-I never understood this rule. It seems too easy for inexperienced member of the team or even people from the crowd to want to follow the buggy and get carried away. Alternatively, what stops a member of one team from pacing another team's buggy and getting it disqualified? This is one where it seems to me like most DQs come not from a team trying to do better in the race but from simple exuberance.

Drop test-Drops and capes make sure that the brakes are not only working but working to some standard. I agree that capes and drops are not a perfect indicator of braking performance but I would say that a buggy that struggles to stop in the required distance will be much more likely to have trouble emergency braking on the course. Brake modulation, driver skill and buggy handling characteristics all play some part in emergency braking but if a mechanic hasn't tightened or aligned them recently there is only so much a driver can do.

Clearly this test is to ensure that the brakes weren't removed or disabled, but as long as the buggy CAN stop, why DQ?

This is a slippery slope. If we don't use a clearly defined distance, how are the judges supposed to consistently and fairly judge a team. If a buggy stops 5 feet over the line is that still good enough? 20 feet? By the bottom of hill 1? This is a case where missing it by so little sucks big time but I would have to say keep on DQing.

[jixson]

I would question the legitimacy of the drop test, if not for the fact we do it every morning at rolls. If you can pass it at every week at rolls, all year long, there's no reason to fail on raceday, that's just the way I see it

[Mohin]

I would question the legitimacy of the drop test, if not for the fact we do it every morning at rolls. If you can pass it at every week at rolls, all year long, there's no reason to fail on raceday, that's just the way I see it

quick reminder that one of your buggies, I believe your A-team, passed drops by about a centimeter or less this year. I made sure the head judge was aware .

DeVos, your points are all well-taken. I revise my opinion on the pushbar rule, you are exactly right.

As for the 5-second rule, I didn't consider the false-start logic, but I still think it's a bad rule- I don't see foul play being a serious issue here.

Maybe I'm wrong about the 5-second rule, but I want to reiterate my previous point that I think the 5-second rule is yet another entry on the long list of "ways to DQ on raceday". I think it's destructive to the sport. Sweepstakes has helped by passing out that "easy ways to avoid DQs" cheat-sheet, but the necessity of such a sheet is my issue. I think the 5-second rule is one of those rules that could be covered by a more general "interference" rule, so that someone who drops the buggy at 4 seconds isn't DQd but someone trying to intentionally mess with the buggies. Pacing is another good example of "we got DQd for WHAT?!" Just saying we should make it easier to have your time countfor something.

[jixson]

quick reminder that one of your buggies, I believe your A-team, passed drops by about a centimeter or less this year. I made sure the head judge was aware .

Bonsai has no trouble breaking. I think Men's C might have come close, but it was still at least a few inches from the line, and we were we were DQ'ed for pushbar anyway. I flagged every drop test on raceday besides my own heat and I know we had nothing to worry about. The beauty of the drop test is there is no ambiguity, you pass or you don't. And it's a standard that everyone has agreed to and explicitly knows from doing it over and over and over again. I would love if you could give me a good reason to justify failing a drop test, then we can actually have a conversation about this.

[trophymursky]

Every rule (including the 5 second rule) exists for a reason and you get a dq for it because you gain an unfair advantage if you break the rule. Their's a reason teams float the buggies and putting them down later gains your team an advantage. Pacing makes your pushers push faster, and if you can shove ur buggy the entire length of hill 5 without having to run to catch up to it you gain a huge advantage. As for 5 second I thing a time penalty may be better than a dq because you don't do anything unsafe and I am for painted zones to eliminate the grey area in enforcing the rule, however some form of the rule should exist.

Also, I think the fringe drop test Mohin was talking about was Banyan in 2010 (and banyan always barley passed dropps). And that was close but it still passed, It is a clear cut rule between passing and failing. And while yes safety wise a 4 inch difference between breaking distance isn't that much, the line needs to be drawn somewhere and every team knows exactly where that line is and also has to pass every week before rolls. As josh eluded to that if it passes every week at drops and fails on raceday that means something was probably done to the breaks to gain an advantage.

Point about drops being, it is a rule with a reason, if you do things that lead to violating the rule it means you are less safe and gain an unfair advantage on teams that follow the rule. It is clearcut black and white whether you pass or not. And every team knows about it and practices it all year long so there is no excuse for failing it.

[DangerMike]

Perhaps the problem with the 5-second rule is the ambiguity of distance. If there were a "hands off" in the count and the mechanics have two seconds to outside of a box that is painted on the ground. 10-9-8-hands off-6-5-4-3-2-1-ready-set-gun.

My problems with pacing are two fold. First of all, there is the obvious issue of performance enhancement. But there is also the issue of big groups of people running up the sideline scaring away the spectators.

The hand on the pushbar rule also serves a second purpose: A "thrown" buggy will go faster than the runner who threw it. So a buggy thrown by team is more likely to hit a hill 5 pusher ahead of them.

I agree with trophymursky that in any of these rules, we are creating a line. That line may be arbitrary, but as long as the rule is measurable an unambiguous I don't have a problem with it.