Pusher Eligibility Rules

[revo]

Revo, I brought this up again because I think it's worth considering, especially given the recent results.

wasn't trying to stop any new discussion - in fact I'll add to it - but figured I'd pull in the prior conversation on the chance that the conversation wouldn't simply repeat and die out, should've made that clear.

I have a hard time figuring out what, if any, rule should be implemented/changed without knowing how prevalent the "last-minute ringer" acquisition actually occurs. TommyK did a quick roster breakdown of some of the top push team rosters and it isn't obvious that there are last-minute additions/ringers there.

Looking at men's races from this year:
16 independent entries (5 orgs)
13 fraternity entries (6 orgs)

essentially there are 4 large participation independents (SDC, CIA, Spirit all rolled 4 teams, Fringe had 3) plus Pioneers

then there are 2 large participation fraternities (PiKA & SigEp each rolled 4 teams) plus AEPi with 2 entries, and three houses with only 1 entry for various reasons (SigNu, SAE, KapSig)

If you ignore DQ's the top 6 were:
Fringe, SDC, PiKA, SDC, SigEp, SDC.

So you have representation from two large independents and both of the large fraternity entries. If KDR was still around - and assuming they would have continued recent trends from their last few years - they would have been in the mix for the top 6 as well. (If you go back a couple of years - 2006-2008 you have fairly even representation in the top 10 btwn fraternities and independents b/c of KDR teams, SigNu, Beta, PhiKap etc - more historically there were greater numbers of fraternity entries so it would make sense that more of them are up top.)

Obviously SDC has the greatest depth at the moment, but PiKA has historically had two entries fighting for trophies, multiple years with 3 teams in the top 10, and SigNu has been top 10 (when not DNF) since the 1960's.

I'd theorize that any trend toward reduction of fraternity representation at the top of the leaderboard has more to do with lack of participation by the fraternities that haven't lost their houses than it is in any general inability to find the pushers in the house to approach/match the speed that PiKA, SDC, and Fringe have had the past few years (including any of the supposed last minute ringers/additions by independent orgs).

There is a distinct gap in freeroll speeds that has less to do with pushers and more to do with wheels/buggies/prep, for many years the fraternity entries had the edge there, it has somewhat swung the other way at the moment - certainly a major component of the difference this year. e.g. if KDR & PhiKap of 10 yrs ago were still around it would make a big difference, but that is simply due to more organizations participating.

All teams have the same restrictions for Women's races and they aren't all that different from men's in that SDC, Fringe, PiKA, SigEp have all been competing for trophies in the past couple of years... so either the fraternities don't care, can claim not to care, or are not using this supposed advantage to get last minute ringers for their women's teams.

Mini-raceday (occurring in the fall), as long as it has existed, has done a good job of mirroring the race results for fraternities and independents alike, so not really in line with the concept of last-minute ringers making it so that the fraternities are at an actual disadvantage.

All that said, I wouldn't have an issue with the idea of some type of qualification for pushers in that they have to show up to some %/# of days of freerolls and/or some earlier date for rosters to be locked down (some cutoff that allows for prospective pushers to try out a few days of rolls in the spring would make sense). I don't think the top of the leaderboard would change as a result and someone would have to figure out an effective way for sweepstakes to track pusher attendance if that was part of the equation.

Regarding switching organizations, I again don't know how common that is (not sure how one would want to treat situations where an organization starts or restarts a buggy program... e.g. many of the SigEp pushers/mechanics were involved with Fringe when they started their org, what to do with Beta members if Beta decides to do buggy again etc)...do mechanics have to take a year off too? or are they the coaches in the NCAA metaphor and they can jump to new teams anytime?

For what it is worth, according to Tom Wood's presentations, this is a very old topic, there was talk in the 1930's of banning all varsity athletes because Kap Sig had a perceived advantage / the most athletic house...

[TommyK]

Tommy, the fraternities actually could not make a buggy exception to add people the the roster and they do not really make their own rules for membership. The basic rules come down from National organizations and/or IFC. There is no way to have two levels of "brotherhood" that would be kosher with IFC or any house's National. And, you missed my point that I wouldn't want to see the fraternities simply allowed to bring in "ringers" of their own. I think that the independents should have to play by the same rules, that's all. .

Right, the 'greeks' i.e. IFC, set their own rules. A centuries old tradition that membership is exclusive, restrictive, expensive and requires a period of diminished status to prove commitment (rushing, pledging, serfing whatever you call it). CIA, Fringe and SDCbuggy were started as orgs to allow non-greeks to participate in Carnival. You want to restrict the structure and membership of the purpose-built, merit-based orgs in favor of the blood commitment, elitist model of social organizations where you literally have to be 'voted-in' and cough up a few grand because (blubber blubber) "its not fair!"

To be an upper echelon team it takes practice and training. To win you have to learn pushing form, get to know the buggy's weight and balance, nail tricky transitions, get the 2 shove and 3 pickup right, and gain the confidence of the team/captain that you will execute on raceday. No good team is going to rely on a last minute addition ... the difference between spring pledge spanking night and first weekend of rolls is two weeks and a secret handshake. Get over it.

[amyr]

He joined our house after being in SDC, and there's no way we'd make him quit an org he established himself in on our behalf.

That makes total sense. I keep forgetting that people don't just pledge as freshmen.

Also, this is the first year Kap Sig did buggy in a long time, so it makes sense that a pusher wouldn't switch teams mid-season.

[lchomas]

Revo, I didn't think you were trying to stop discussion, just wanted to be clear on why I started this again. You may be right that it happens infrequently or doesn't end up mattering. If the results end up the same with everyone playing with the same rules, great! At least all teams have similar restrictions and that made for a fair race. It is clear from the other thread and, I think, from all of our experiences that this does happen. I know I witnessed it happen at KDR with the women's team. After I graduated, the undergrads brought a woman from the track team out on the last day of push practice before the race, had her run a couple times, and then put her on the team. It felt kind of hallow from where I was standing.

On you comment about the women's races, they are much more dominated historically by the independents. I don't think most fraternities care or try as much in that race to field a good team. Fraternities typically have fewer women's teams than men's, if they have a women's team at all. The incident with the KDR women's team was an anomaly. In general, we asked one girl to bring her sorority sisters over and push. They put in whatever amount of time they wanted and that was the way it went.

Having some qualification for pushers or a longer lead time on rosters might actually help buggy. It could get more people out during freerolls, not just on raceday. It's been a while since I've been out to rolls, but there used to be a number of orgs that would struggle to push all the hills in early March and then have three teams on Raceday.

If SDC members don't all live in the dorms, then how do they justify their huge budget taken from the dormitory fees? If I lived in a dorm (especially if I was in another org) I would be furious that my money was going to pay for someone who doesn't pay in to do buggy.

Tommy, I can not engage you further on this topic.

[Elmo Zoneball]

I guess we can tell who didn't get a bid when he was an undergrad.....

[TommyK]

Having some qualification for pushers or a longer lead time on rosters might actually help buggy. It could get more people out during freerolls, not just on raceday. It's been a while since I've been out to rolls, but there used to be a number of orgs that would struggle to push all the hills in early March and then have three teams on Raceday..

Those teams were mostly Frats. Start disqualifying teams for pushers not coming to rolls or push practice and the first ones out the door will be Beta, SAE, Kap Sig, and SN. Rosters can't be set til push practices confirm times, i.e. Fringe didn't have any hill 1 times until Truck weekend because of rainouts. Wake up dude, there is no bias, just frat apathy. Fix that before you start trying to tear down others.

[penguin]

any rules about qualification of pushers would be too much of a hassle in practice. just open up the teams and each team can decide what they want to do. what is everyone afraid of?
-bird

[galexkeene]

If SDC members don't all live in the dorms, then how do they justify their huge budget taken from the dormitory fees? If I lived in a dorm (especially if I was in another org) I would be furious that my money was going to pay for someone who doesn't pay in to do buggy.

Fact checking time!

- "huge budget" -- can we, for once, justify this without just taking it as "fact"? I hear Fringe uses their activities fee money to throw cocaine and hooker parties at an off campus house! Proof? None, but you know, someone who KNOWS [McCue] told me, so it must be true.

- Yes, if you live in the dorm your dorm fee contributes to SDC Buggy's budget. Those fees also pay for all the TVs, pool tables and any dorm outings/gatherings your RA or Housefellow might plan, as well as events like Primal Scream, etc.

- If someone wants to join SDC Buggy and doesn't live on campus, they also pay the dorm fee in order to officially "join" SDC (I did this all three years I was in SDC Buggy, this may be different now, not sure if the rules have changed), so all those living off campus are not freeloaders.

- EVERY student, whether living on or off campus, undergrad or grad, pays the Activities Fee which goes to fund the budget of every independent under StuSen (or whatever), which is all the other ones besides SDC. It goes both ways.

P.S. I'm sure Fringe only uses their own cash for the coke and hookers, it was just for example's sake.

[tbach0729]

Having some qualification for pushers or a longer lead time on rosters might actually help buggy. It could get more people out during freerolls, not just on raceday. It's been a while since I've been out to rolls, but there used to be a number of orgs that would struggle to push all the hills in early March and then have three teams on Raceday..

Those teams were mostly Frats. Start disqualifying teams for pushers not coming to rolls or push practice and the first ones out the door will be Beta, SAE, Kap Sig, and SN. Rosters can't be set til push practices confirm times, i.e. Fringe didn't have any hill 1 times until Truck weekend because of rainouts. Wake up dude, there is no bias, just frat apathy. Fix that before you start trying to tear down others.

I won't speak to the others, but as a Kap Sig I can tell you that every single one of our pushers was at every freeroll starting at Mini Raceday. Just because we pushed off from Hill 2 until Truck doesn't mean they weren't there.

You seem to be the only one doing any tearing down right now.

[jixson]

P.S. I'm sure Fringe only uses their own cash for the coke and hookers, it was just for example's sake.

Nah we just use the booth budget